第七章　対談——羽生善治×梅田望夫

Chapter 7 - The Dialogue between Yoshiharu Habu and Mochio Umeda

The Future of Real-Time Commentaries and "Enjoying Watching" Shogi

Umeda: I believe that this is our first time in meeting each other on business. We both have deliberately kept ourselves from meeting in the setting of work, but ever since I visited Niigata for the first game of Kisei title match, my life begun to change drastically (laughs).

Habu: I see (laughs). I also hold immense interest in your attempt to write live commentaries, which you have just started. I wonder what people think about those live commentaries in the future, say five years from now. How will the world of shogi be delivered to people outside. Until recently, there were only limited channels to deliver shogi to the mass. With the outcomes of your new trial,  I was made to think that, revolutionary ways are being laid out. 

Umeda: I see. Revolutionary ways?

Habu: One of them is the "interactivities." I think that for the generations to come, whatever the context, how you deliver what you feel and why you feel, in the fast-pace setting of "real-time," "live," and "instantaneous" standard is getting  more and more crucial. That's what I felt most after I read your live commentaries about the Kisei and Ryuoh title matches. For example, in the first game of the Osho title match that took place few days ago, two commentary events in Tokyo and Naruto-shi were linked together on live.

Umeda: I always watch shogi on live, on the web from Silicon Valley. I really think those lives are superb, what is more, I always think that shogi is indeed suited for live events on the web.

Habu: What I found great about your real-time online commentary is that, you were in fact, also a player in the game! The point I am trying to make here is that, you have prepared and studied a great deal beforehand in order to write a commentary. This process of preparing and studying is exactly what we players go through before a match (laughs). It does not end here, the limited time allocated to you to consolidate and write a considerable amount of text, is equivalent to a shogi players time allocated to play his moves. The sense of both the shogi player and the commentary writer working alongside simultaneously, has perfectly matched the context of live broadcasting.

Umeda: Well. Compared to the immense energy put into shogi by the professional players though, what I put in is of less significance and I don't think it should be even compared. However, I understand what you mean. Because I was, indeed, doing my very best in completing the task within the time allowed.

Habu: However, I happened to find a problem here. After reading your work, other commentary writers said "Umeda-san is extraordinary and he is unmatched," and no one would dare to say "I will do the same next" (laughs). No other can accomplish the same as you.

Umeda: No. That is not true. I think they can do it.

Habu: I wonder whether anyone will stand up and say, "I will do it," in the times ahead. If at all, they could be different from conventional commentary writers. For example, it may become that viewers who view live matches on the web, not only contribute by posting their opinions and impressions on bulletin boards but write about the game in the form of a commentary. There may be progresses like so. I am looking forward to see the "next" of you to rise up.

Umeda: The greatest difficulty I encountered in writing real-time online commentaries was that, naturally enough, the explanations for on-going moves did not generate itself in my mind, because I am not a professional shogi player. Therefore, in order to overcome this, I have related the reality that was observed directly in front of me in the playing room to the material I had prepared in advance. At the same time, I had listened to what the professional players would say in the common room, finally integrating all the components into a single writing (refer to third chapter). For example, a writer like me can make a team with a professional player, who understands as well as the actual players and can come up with seamless flows of commentary and explanations on each move. Then they would definitely be able to compose an ultimate real-time online commentary, although it depends on how much cost we are willing to spend.

Habu: In other words, you need professional players' cooperation to give commentaries on the game, right? But the situations of a shogi are always changing, it is not definite. With one player applauding one side, there is usually another that is unsure about it. Most games, not only title matches, do keep fluctuating at smallest margins all the time. I have a feeling that the difference between professionals and amateurs in the ability to see those fluctuations is small. Except for few matches where one player is clearly the dominant and the winning from the beginning, everyone tends to have different views towards the match if it's in a seesaw game. It has nothing to do with how good they are at shogi when seeing a situation where it's hard to tell which direction the needle is to point to. I think that even amateurs can grasp the atmosphere or the "field" to a great extent as long as they know some basic rules. Of course, professionals are much more able to see the hidden meanings of one move. But on the other hand, they tend to see only those hidden parts. I think it would be best if we could complement the views of professionals and amateurs.

The Ever-Fluctuating Position and the Beauty of Balance ／ 揺れ動き続ける局面と、均衡の美

Umeda: If you say something like that "there is not much difference between professionals and amateurs in the ability to watch shogi," it is really pleasing for many watching fans including me! Come to think about it, it may be true that there are many fans who are watching totally different things from "the hidden meanings of a move," "positional judgement" or "study of the next move." Professionals come up with many moves after a move and read how they will branches into the details in an instant. The net live and TV commentaries are also focused on those things. But for me, though I can't play like a professional player, I watch games and get mesmerized by the beauty of a big flow and the storyline of a game. I always watch those big flows of a game. And as I often use the word "beauty of balance," there are many situations which seem to be tilted to one side at a first glance but actually is very well balanced. It may be related to the expression "fluctuations," but in the shogis of professionals small mistakes tend to happen at the very end, and except for that, the match maintains its really beautiful balance throughout the match. I was indeed moved by all the 140 moves in the seventh game of Ryuoh title match the other day.

Habu: I see.

Umeda: But there is some atmosphere to prevent amateurs from saying such things in the shogi world. It may be because if someone said "then can you do it?," we amateurs wouldn't be able to do it (laugh). I couldn't say anything if I was asked by which I was moved... But for example, we are allowed to say "I was moved by the painting" even if we are unable to draw it. No one would say "but you can't paint it" when I said "I was moved by The Last Judgement in the Sistine Chapel." But when I say "I was moved by a shogi match," people ask me how good I'm at it (laugh).

Habu: (laugh)

Umeda: It takes a lifetime if we want to play a beautiful game like professionals. Many people don't have that kind of gut and therefore become a watching fan. But unless we are good at actually playing, we need to refrain from commenting. I think there has been this kind of tacit understanding. Of course, professionals read deeply hidden meanings. But there are many other who see shogi from different perspectives. Since I wrote real-time commentary from amateurs' perspectives, more and more "non-playing shogi fan," who just know the basic rules, are starting to write their comments on the web.

Habu: I think that it is a new potential. Though there might have been invisible barriers against it, I'm sure that there're feeling as if they are watching dramas or reading stories, as you just said. Even I as a player can't tell where I'm going to get in the end. It seems to end in any minute, but often it doesn't. Even I myself always miss their predictions. I think it is in this unexpectedness lie the fun parts of shogi. Even I, for example in Kisei title match, how can I put it... I felt that everytime we played, new things came along. Although we (Habu and Sato) have played more than one hundred official games, and tried every possible pattern, new positions still keep arising. Unexpected things keep happening and I keep thinking that "you thought through this much"?

Umeda: Even you can't tell which way they are heading by yourself?

Habu: No. Shogi is something which keeps flowing from the beginning to end. In those flows, I always think "ah, I finally figured out how this works" and keep being impressed. At Takashimaya (in the first round of Kisei title match), for example, even though the shogi remained well balanced, I snapped at the beginning of the final phase.... I really regret it. It's nothing to do with whether I win or not. I often think that had it remained balanced a little bit longer, it could have turned out to be a really interesting and meaningful shogi.

The World of Modern Shogi, Where a Compass Does Not Work 羅針盤のきかない現代将棋の世界／

Umeda: How was the shogi in Paris? Since Watanabe-san's disappointment was such that I proposed my hypothesis that you intentionally lured him into the position of B-6d.

Habu: It was a strange shogi. I think we were agreeing on positional judgement each other. I was thinking I was slightly bad when he made a promoted Rook with trading a bishop for a Gold and Knight. But the truth turned out to be different. It's like we both had wrong positional judgement (laugh). We were agreeing that "Sente (First mover) was leading the position," but were actually wrong. It was a weird shogi. It's not like I intentionally did it. Actually I reluctantly chose that move because I thought there was no other choice. But it turned out it's difficult after that.

Umeda: But you could have chosen not to get into that position before you "reluctantly chose that move."

Habu: Yes. At the position at the end of the first day, I couldn't have played otherwise. I already had a feeling that I might not be playing well at that stage. There would have been some problems much before then, but I realized that when we got into that position. If we try to get to the core of it, the final phase always turns out to be borderline. These kinds of situation occurred many times in this Ryuoh title match, including the one in Paris, and they really often occur in games with other people, too. For some strange reason, weirdly borderline positions tend to arise in real matches, not in our study. This is one of the strangest things about shogi.

Umeda: It's like if the top two with the same skills confront each other, for some reason, shogi ends up being borderline. It sounds natural if we put it like this.

Habu: But I think that there're many other fields where the smallest difference decides who wins and who loses. For example, baseball. No matter how close both teams are, it's not like every game turns out to be a very close one. But in shogi, for some reason, the possibility of this happening is extraordinarily high.

Umeda: Indeed. There are some baseball matches which make the audience bored in the first inning. In the U.S., going to a stadium to watch baseball with family is a huge leisure even for not so wealthy families. Once a year, a son tells his father to go and watch a baseball game, and they pleasantly come to the stadium. And the game sometimes starts with 9-0 in the first inning.

Habu: That's rare in shogi. I can't say the possibility is zero, but basically shogi matches always tend to be very close.

Umeda: That's very interesting. I haven't read anything that explains with words the characteristics of shogi like this. In other words, Shogi is extremely excellent as an entertainment!

Habu: Is it? Ah, yes it is (laugh).

Umeda: What I found interesting in Paris is that Watanabe-san kept saying that there was nothing after B*6d, and the shogi ended there, even though Sato-san and Yonenaga-san in the waiting room didn't take it like this at all, and were rather excited saying that it was a extraordinarily great match. You also said in the after match talk "it had been difficult to the end, hadn't it?" However, only Watanabe-san says "(the match) sucked." How can we interpret something like this?

Habu: I reckon that Watanabe-san felt that he was playing very well when he played G*4c. But B*6d was actually unexpectedly difficult, and the gap was so huge that it shocked Watanabe-san to such an extent, I guess.

Umeda: Was his judgement of the game having ended there wrong from your viewpoint?

Habu: It's not like whether it was wrong or not... When he dropped a Bishop (B*6d), I neither thought I was winning nor felt confident. It was like "I guess this is the only, but the most promising move." It was long after that, when I played S*6g a few moves before the last, when I felt I might not lose. When I found that move of S*6g which would work for both offense and defense, I could begin to think I might be able to manage to win. Having said that, it might be also true that Watanabe-san's style, how can I put it, his ideal way of winning and ideal shogi, began to change at the position of B*6d. I guess this led to his comment. In the end, there lies the difference of the styles of shogi between the proffesioals in their twenties and thirties, I think. For example in the case of Sato-san, instead of creating shogi with styles and patterns consciously in mind, he reads a great amount (laugh) and manages to make it up in order, whatever the situation he's in. It is not only Watababe-san's but also other young professional shogi player's trend to create their own systems and patterns. Even I felt when I was in my 20s that "these ways are the mainstream and if I keep continuing this I'll be successful." This may be gradually changing, though.

Umeda: Does it mean that you have.... matured?

Habu: I wonder if I can call it "matured." For example, there are Tactical moves and Shapes, right? The more those patterns you know, the better you can patternize. But that's not all there is to shogi, and shogi matches often turn out to be twisting, twisting each other. In this case, it is important to flexibly react to complicatedness and uncertainty, by twisting each other.

Umeda: How could you put that "twisting" in other words?

Habu: For instance, I think even if a third party made just one move at a particular position, then it would be a twisting one. I could express using the words "linear" or "curved." A shogi game tends to leave some degree of vagueness. Especially at an crossroad of a game, some vagueness definitely remains, so if each other tries to keep the vagueness alive, twisting each other occurs or the position is becoming chaos. The approach of twisting don't often happen in the opening, but often occur from the middle phase onward.

Umeda: You mean, for example, that shogi matches which proceed linearly from a certain point are different from a twisting positon?

Habu: You're right. One professional once used the word "speedy persistence," that is to say, being aggressive and patient at the same time (laugh). Although each other is attacking, it's not like they are trying to win from those attacks. They might try not to let some pieces captured or to prevent opponent king from enter into his camp with giving collateral conditions or giving a turn to play during making moves of offense and defense. In other words, they are trying to increase possibilities by keeping many choices alive. Judging from my experience, this trend can be often observed in the last decade. Such games started to appear with the emergence of R-8e strategy. In spite that R-8e strategy is a pre-study-oriented, mixter-maxter positions appears from the middlegame onwards.

Umeda: I see.

Habu: The compass does not work well in R-8e strategy. For example, Furibisha (Ranging Rook) is a game where the compass works well. I mean, making Sabaki and then going into attacking each other or repairing one's castle.

The compass works more easily in the strategies which have played from old times like Furibisha (Ranging Rook) and Yagura Opening. But it doesn't in the recent strategies such as B-8e and Itteson Kakugawari (Bishop Exchange with losing a move). 

Umeda: Do you mean that especially in the last decade, those who are capable of coming up with the best or close to the best move in really untrodden situations are becoming advantageous?

Habu: Ummm, it is difficult but i think it's up to how much one can endure vagueness. I believe it is how normally one can keep playing in the face of this vagueness and randomness that decides who's strong.

Umeda: Does that mean it is better not to think something like "I want to go back to the comfortable zone from this vagueness!"? This thought leads to a defeat. Do you mean that, on the contrary, those who would enjoy this vagueness and be willing to think about it forever would win? 

Habu: You're right, haha, though I'm not sure I could actually say that (laugh). But it may well be true that it's better to assume this degree of attitude.

What players' are thinking ／ 対局者同士が考えていること／

Umeda: This is your interview from around five years ago. You answered to a question "what is a deep shogi?" that "it is like that totally unexpected situations still occur after a great deal of study and mental training. I would say a deep shogi is the one which gives rise to unexpected situations despite that fact I try to predict as many situations as I can beforehand. (Weekly Shogi, 16th July, 2003 issue)" ... You are saying you want to play such shogi. When I first read this, it struck my heart. Is "maintaining vagueness" similar to this?

Habu: Yes, I think they are really similar. I guess it leads to twisting each other in the end. How can I say this... Nothing is better than a clear shogi after linearly played, but it is often the case that something happens at the very last in shogi. Although I sometimes feel "I can linearly attack here," there are always some pitfalls in the end (laugh). So based on my experience, it is an important factor to keep those vagueness, randomness and uncertainty, in other words "possibilities" alive as much as we can.

Umeda: In the final phase, difficult and complicated positions always tend to happen, and no matter how much you read, with just one move by the opponent, your reads become meaningless... and this continues, am I right?

Habu: Yes. When entering those positions we can tell to some extent who's winning and losing from shape. It is sometimes possible to know something like "I'm one move short," "I can't end yet" or "I can win with one-move difference".

Umeda: In a recent interview you said "I was surprised to find out how deep the vein of shogi."

Habu: Yes yes. I often get surprised to find new posiitons. At the final round of Ryuoh title match as well. Katsuhiro Kogure-san was the commentary writer in the seventh round and he asks questions to several professional shogi players when he writes a commentary. And it seems he asked Atsushi Miyata-kun (5 dan), and when I went back home a few days after the match, I found four pages of FAX from Kogure-san regarding Miyata-kun's study. They were all on the final phase of that match. To my surprise, they were certainly amazing (laugh). He took a massive amount of time for them.

Umeda: How were they compare to your reading during the match?

Habu: His way surpassed it. He spent hours on a move I played in a minute. But even after studying these, I can still not figure out what was right and what was wrong in that shogi in the end. If asked the conclusion of mine, I'm still not sure what was right even now. I found it really strange that we can't figure it out with this amount of time and people spent.

Umeda: Which was the losing move is often the first point of discussion on site. They tend to yield conclusions as soon as possible. When I went to Toyota-city for the second game of Oui title match, you and Fukaura-san were just pondering without uttering any word in the post game analysis. I reckon that you two were reflecting back the shogi you'd just finished in your minds, but you just kept saying "it was really difficult" and "I can't figure it out." But since it doesn't make an article, the shogi writers ask questions by specifying some situations. Like, "Could you have won if you had done so and so?" I could just watch you from your side since I wasn't writing a commentary on that day, but I was wondering if what others asked you and what you two pondered through during the two days of match and reflected back in the post game analysis are totally different.

Habu: Immediate after a match, I myself don't usually understand how it went, and am not confident to give correct answers even if asked specific questions. Even though I could say "these moves might exist," it would be... difficult to say "I could have won by doing this." We don't trace back the whole match in a post game analysis.

Umeda: Is it like you're standing at the ending point of a river flowing forward?

Habu: I might be able to answer for sure after an hour, but even the player himself doesn't understand the match right after it. It takes more time for really difficult ones because one or two hours easily pass while studying them. It is often the case that after even more time has passed, for example when I publish a book of my game collection and need to study much, I can reach the conclusion to write down.  But come to think about it, there's the issue of deadline for flash report articles (laugh). I get pulled back to reality there.

Umeda: It works like "then, let's decide on this situation like this for the time being" and post game analysis converges. It might not be necessary to prove the truth of every match, but I believe it's important, regarding really important matches, to spread what the players were thinking about most seriously, including the essence of the match.

Keep Thinking About a Problem With No Answer, Like an Attempt to Hold a Cloud

雲を掴むように、答えのない問題を考え続ける／

Umeda: You said that you are still surprised by "how deep the vein of shogi is," but even for watching fans, surprises such as "ah, it leads to this kind of situation!" and "this flow comes back here from that situation!" are the sources of our excitement. We are interested not only in who wins, but also in greater dramas, something like a flow of gamerecord as beauty and an art.

Habu: I could say that the players are creating it on the one hand, but on the other, I could also say that I myself are not feeling that they are part of it. It is... lack of tangibility. For example, artists draw paintings and carve sculptures with tangibility at hand. But in shogi, Deciding a move is always born from intangibility. Basically we can't make a move in a tangible way?. It's like "I'm not confident about this, but let's just do it, and then do it." (laugh). After this process of kind of grasping clouds can we finally figure out something a little after examination of post game analysis. It is often only after we study a match when we can finally understand something about it.

Umeda: I see. Um, is it deeply related to the existence of "the time limit?" In the case of shogi, realistically speaking, each player is allocated ten or less hours. But in the case of artists, they can spend a tremendous amount of time on one piece of painting and only after considering how to compose and color it and being able to see the final image can they finish a work. They can spend as much as they want on a piece of work. Of course there are some like Picasso who draw up with very little time, but they are essentially free about their own time. There's no such freedom in shogi. Doesn't this restrict you?

Habu: Umm, time... I think even though it took tens of hours or hundreds of hours, results would be the same. It's wrong to say the better we can play the more time we spend. There seems to be huge difference between games played with very little time and ones played with very long time, but actually there are not. Games played with little time can be very good. In addition, about why shogi has nothing to do with time, it's kind of related to a characteristics of shogi... Shogi is after all kind of dependant on the opponent. In other words, you shouldn't try to play well on your own. After giving your best shot, you need to give the opponent his turn, saying "I will leave the rest to you." Shogi is not what you complete on your own but where you do your best and leave the rest to the opponent.

Umeda: Shogi is where you say "I'll leave the rest to you"? (laugh)

Habu: That's right (laugh).

Umeda: When I watched Jonetsu Tairiku (a TV program) which featured this season's Ryuoh title match the other day, and you said "there are many cases where I can't come up with an answer. I'm troubled most regarding what I should do when I can't find an answer." Is that similar to this?

Habu: Yes it is. After all, after you've played your part, your move disappears and so you need to entrust the rest to the opponent. Whatever you think and no matter what move the opponent makes, you need to accept it as it is. How we can overcome this vagueness, randomness and something like concern, I think everything leads to these kind of things.

People are Fascinated by People

人は、人にこそ、魅せられる／

Umeda:About watching flows of a match with a bird's-eye view instead of looking deeply into a certain position of the match, it may be a little bit off the point.... I wake up around 4 a.m every morning and study what has happened in the world the day before. And I simultaneously keep the live broadcast of shogi matches open if there is any. It's just around 8 or 9 p.m. in Japan. While watching what's happening in the world and following the flows of several shogi matches, I sometimes leave my PC and sit down in front of the board and replay your games on it and go back to the PC if I come up with some good ideas... I spent five to six hours in the morning like this. Pondering about my work, watching the flow of shogi matches and facing the board.. doing something like this brings me great ideas. It's like a catalyst.

Habu: Catalyst. Ah, I see! I understand.

Umeda: Put it another way, I never improve playing on my own no matter how much I watch... But concerning my businesses I think I've been doing great because of shogi. It is also similar to, for example, watching paintings. Shogi has been the only catalyst of mine lately, but I used to go watch paintings in the last ten years. I would fly all the way to New York if there is a retrospective exhibition of an artist, where you can see all the works of his/her, and would also visit a museum during my stay in Europe. Though I was watching paintings, what I was thinking tended to be about my work. Following the flow of a shogi match is, as a catalyst, very similar to those experiences. It's a big plus to my work.

Habu: Shogi and paintings and your work are completely different things, but although they seem to be different they actually have something in common. I think I can understand we tend to be inspired by those things.

Umeda: A methodology of creating something new hasn't yet been founded, so everyday is bumpy. In my case, there is no routine work because of the characteristics of my work, and I can't be valuable if I can't come up with something new. If you've been in one specialized field for 20 years, nothing new comes out of your head unless you keep taking in different catalysts. So shogi, it could be especially recent shogi, .... is really interesting. This may be an "amusing point" watchers imagine by preference. It's different from professionals as parties in charge watching a match while looking for "the best move" and "the next move." It's viewing shogi as "a story" as I said before. "He came back here after playing that move!" "Was this played with the intention of entering King from the beginning?" "Have they played for two days really wanting to make it this kind of situation!?"... My mind becomes sharper when I watch thinking this and that like this.

Habu: Not only from professional shogi players and painters but also from someone who's mesmerized or obsessed by something can other people learn a hint or a trigger to create something new, this kind of thing is highly possible. How one can influence others, what kind of new triggers one can make for others, what value one can create and what new one can show to others. I think that there lies the difference between computers and humans. A person doesn't get attracted to someone doing something expected. No matter how much they try to influence others, they would fail to do so if others though "they are just doing things that have been already planned." The appearance of even themselves not knowing what they are doing at all like professional shogi players (laugh) would attract and influence others.

Umeda: You keep explaining about "difficulties" of shogi. These days, the trend that things should be easier and clearer, and steadiness-oriented mind of wanting tomorrow to be the same as today are prevalent. But compared to easier things, I think that the more difficult, the more interesting. In fact, no one can predict futures, and a life and human beings are both complicated. But it is only by confronting those difficulties can human beings be human beings. Shogi may represent this kind of thing.

Habu: I agree. It would be troublesome if one asked me if I could ultimately conquer those difficult and unclear problems, but I think what is important is to say "then, let's just put a stone here" and actually make a move like this. It's not like there's a meaning in putting the stone there. Instead of saying "it's so difficult and complicated that we should better go somewhere else (laugh)," it's important that we actually just put it. As a result, something new might happened, or something might collapse. But I think that having the mindset of "let's just put it" is really important.

Umeda: You talked about Sisyphus in Greek Mythology in a dialogue with Mr. Gozo Yoshimasu long time ago, didn't you? Sisyphus keeps lifting rocks again and again. I vividly remembered you, in your twenties, saying that you found pleasure in doing the same things again and again and could feel alive by doing so. I'm wondering if the fact you're facing shogi with this in mind is the reason that you've remained the top for a long time.

Habu: If you rationalized that actual results are everything, I think then the world would become so boring and tasteless. It's the world of a desert. If you say "then there could be meanings in somewhere else" and think about it, things that are left at the end are only processes. What's crucial is what you want to accomplish and what you are aiming to achieve in the processes, I reckon.

Habu: As you once said "if we wanted to decide who's the winner and who's the loser, then we should just do rock, paper and scissors."

In the Age of "Animal Trails," We Look for a Value Wildly

けものみちの時代、「野性」で価値を探していく／

Habu: That is right, indeed. If you have a look at processes which lead to a result, the number of "animal trails" we talked about before is really decreasing. At present, there are only a few animal trails left. However, I think it still is important to keep trying to find something there.

Umeda: I would like to hear more about this "animal trails." Did you mean "animal trails" as a comparison to your "theory of highways"?

Habu: Yes, whatever a genre, by spending time, labour, information and trouble exponentially, places which used to be an "animal trail" are becoming....

Umeda: I see, they are becoming (not to the point of becoming highways) more and more well paved.

Habu: That is right. They instantly get paved and animal trails are only in primitive jungles... even in those jungles there are hardly any place where human beings haven't set their foot in. Similar to the earth seen from the geographical perspective, I think every field,  a bit more conceptually speaking, has little left untrodden. I have the feeling that the number of the world where there's a great deal of possibility and expansibility is declining.

Umeda: But you're always experiencing in every match new discoveries, right? Do you think finding those things are great?

Habu: Yes, indeed it is in the shogi world. In this present world where everything is getting paved and although shogi is also influenced by this, the fact that there are still many untrodden paths surprises and impresses me.

Umeda: I see. In fact, what you just said could be also applied to the world in general. I think that the world is now reaching a massive "once-in-hundreds-of-years" turning point, and human beings are confronted by many problems which no one can't be sure how to solve. Until now, the developed countries plus one billion people have gobbled up oils and wasted natural resources. If we kept this in the world scale, the earth would cease to exist. We need to turn from oils to non-oils, but there's been no single path found in that process. How could "ten billion in the future" live with alternative energies and what could we deal with water and food problems? I have the image that, contrary to what you just said, the world is becoming filled with animal trails.

Habu: That indeed is true. I think that wildness is becoming more and more important in the coming ages. There are only a few who are living in a wild world. But I believe that the rest of us have much to learn from those people.

Umeda: Do you mean by wild people the people who are really doing something in the nature?

Habu: Yes. What struck me lately is a story about Mr. Kojiro Shiraishi, who's travelling around the world on a yacht. Having said that, recent travellers usually use GPS. However, interestingly, he goes out onto the deck in the morning to decide the direction of the yacht. And it seems that he goes without GPS when he finds himself in a good instinct. Otherwise, he keeps staring at the screen of his laptop and steadily calculates the course (laugh). I think those people who try and search for ways to survive in a wild and primitive world can teach us many things in the coming era.

Umeda: Human instincts decide everything. That is what "animal trails" are all about, you mean? More than the power of logic and mathematics. Those instincts are the last sanctuary left for human beings.

Habu: Yes. However, those people are in a way very conservative because they are always endangering their lives. If they venture too much, they will die (laugh).

Umeda: I see. While honing wild instincts, they need to avoid being too conservative and complement it with logic. It indeed is inspiring.

Habu: Of course I'd never think about something like this when I started to play shogi. But after I became a professional and found that I'd continued to play for the erst of my life, I began to seriously think "why do I play shogi? What value is there in playing shogi?" professional shogi players' lives are almost the same throughout the year. Game schedules are also fixed throughout the year and accompanied by this, every work is following fixed routines. If the cycle of a year and the year before were the same, I would wonder "is there any meaning in all this?" In other words, there's not much meaning in repeating the same things. It's not essential. I came to have the feeling that it's the key to seek new possibilities, such as different discoveries and different ways, through many matches with exactly the same people.  It's a bit different from expressing my own personalities... Discovering unknown and unproven things is the process of finding a new vein, and digging into it. I would feel happy when I hit something, and even if it ended up nothing, I would just think "it can't be helped, it's just normal" (laugh).

"Habu-san frowns when the opponent plays badly." What is the True Meaning?

「相手の悪手に嫌な顔をする」真意は？／

Umeda: You said that you wish that in the first round of Kisei title match with Mr. Sato the balance of the match had lasted longer. Does this kind of feeling arise during a match? There's a winner and a loser after every match. Which is important at the moment of the end of a match, the result of the match or that you could play well?

Habu: Of course I'm concerned about the result right before either gives up. But for example in the case of Kisei title match, I was pondering for around two minutes before I gave up. It's not like I'm thinking about my next move, but actually I'm thinking something like "ugh.. it didn't go well at all today" (laugh). I spent that two minutes feeling like this.

Umeda: If we take the first round of Kisei title match as an example, you could win when Sato-san played badly after it seemed you spoiled the match. I think that there are some shogi where you win in the end while thinking that you've spoiled the match. What do you think about these matches? Do you feel less pleased?

Habu: Rather than whether I feel pleased or not, in those cases, I would feel unrefreshed.

Umeda: Umm.. the legend has it that "Habu-san frowns when the opponent plays badly," right? Is there any truth in it?

Habu: Hahahaha (laugh). Well, for example, in tennis, you want a rally to last forever if it's going so well, don't you?

Umeda: You wish a rally to last forever instead of wanting to win as soon as possible. I see. Then you're unconsciously frowning if the opponent plays badly (laugh).

Habu: No, I don't believe I'm frowning (laugh)! But it could be true that if I played badly I would feel disappointed. The same thing, I guess.

Umeda: People would usually think "Haha, lucky, I've won!" if the opponent played badly, but you would think "I wished the beautiful balance to last..." am I right?

Habu: It's not like I feel disappointed by the opponent nor do I have some kind of aesthetics (laugh). I just like those shogi which come back to the course in the proper and ramrod-straight manners. Whether it's me or the opponent, if one played a bad move, then it would mean that we had lost a chance to create something greater.

Umeda: "We had lost a chance to create something greater." Do you have this sort of feeling not only in normal matches but also in the rounds of title matches? Do you think the same way about the whole series?

Habu: For instance, I lost two matches and won three matches in the five rounds of Kisei title match. After having lost two matches in a row, I thought that it could end in the next match, but since the first two matches were so pathetic that I wanted to maintain this sort of balance at least in the third match. I would feel sorry if it ended with that pathetic state. Title matches are great stages and opportunities for every professional shogi player, so besides the result, everyone would regret it if they couldn't do their best.

Characteristics of Shogi: All the Information on the Board can be Shared 

盤上で、すべてを共有できるという特性／

Umeda: It seems that Watanabe-san was in the same mindset in the 4th round of Ryuoh title match after he lost 3 matches in a row against you. In this Ryuoh title match, since live broadcasts were good in every match, people from all over the world kept the live board open on the web and watched the match. There are some communities on the web where shogi-lovers can get together and they freely write their comments there. When I had a peek in it, I could even hear some "screams."

Habu: I see. Variety of things certainly exist.

Umeda: As I said at the beginning of this dialogue, the number of ways to watch shogi on the web is increasing and becoming diversified. I used a comparison with baseball in this book, but I think shogi is more advantageous in that all the information on site can be shared on the web. Of course it is impossible to share the mental state of the players in a real time. But every information is on the board in the case of shogi, right? In the cases of baseball or football, you can see all the information inside the stadium if you actually go there, but there is only one part which a TV screen cut out at one time. Even though one has deep knowledge about baseball, since they can only see the batter and pitcher on the TV screen, they can't see simulltaneously what's happening at the first base and the second, nor can they see how each nine member reacts to each pitch. I heard that both infielders and outfielders always subtly adjust their positions based on the count and the position of runners.  It's not as simple as moving forward for a squeeze but more subtle. People with very deep knowledge about baseball pay attention to those things. I like baseball and often go to a stadium but if I study beforehand and am well prepared, the game looks different. It's exhausting with a vast amount of information but it really helps. "I see, that's why the shortstop could jump sideways and manage to catch the ball." It's not only to do with how physically fit he was.

Habu: He anticipated where the ball was coming and moved his position accordingly, I see.

Umeda: But you can see such things on the TV screen. All you can see is the moment the pitcher throws the ball and the moment the fielders catch the ball. There is huge gap between the amount of whole information inside the stadium and that cut out for the TV screen. It is, how can I put it, dissymmetric or totally different. However, in the case of shogi, there is little, if any, such gap.

Habu: Yes, it indeed is true. Yes.

Umeda: I can see a huge potential in it. Everyone can be watching the same thing in the same situation. They can share it. What's on the board is all there is. And this makes us all the more curious about the players' mind state that is invisible to others. With basic rules, even amateurs know how to move pieces. The more advance one becomes and the more patterns he/she memorizes, the more he/she comes to know. But after all of this, only what the players are thinking while playing is unknowable. In this kind of situation everyone from novices to dan-players are anticipating the next move. These spaces emerge on the web one after another.

Habu: I see. Then the live environment will become really important. I sometimes watch others' matches on the web. But if all of those matches were updated on the real time basic, then what we could see would greatly increase. When there are many matches, they are updated in a big chunk and we can't see some of the last parts, can we?

Umeda: Why? No, the recent title matches are almost all updated on the real time basis. I see. Since you've played every title match last year, you didn't watch any broadcast (laugh)!

Habu: Really!? Are they available on the real time basis!?

Umeda: Yes they are. I see I see. Only you don't know this (laugh). You were talking about the broadcast of ranking matches. Since many games are played at the same time and there's a shortage of staff, they input in a big chunk when the matches enter one-minute shogi in the final phase. But everything is fine with title matches. They are uploaded on the real time basis from the waiting room of the tournament venue, and there's hardly any time difference. Ordinary fans are complaining about just five or ten seconds of delay. In other words, such a luxurious live environment is all established.

Habu: What!? Five or ten seconds!? Oh I see, excuse my ignorance (laugh).

Umeda: It's funny that you couldn't watch any "broadcast" of the title matches last year.

Habu: Indeed (laugh). There's no other way but put a PC next to me (laugh).

Researchers Who Analyze the Evolution Process of Shogi

進化のプロセスを解析する研究者たち／

Speaking of broadcast, I was very impressed when Watanabe-san chose Rapid Attack in Yagura Opening in the sixth round of Ryuoh title match. I even shouted "Eeeh!" What did you think about it? Were you surprised when he moved up the Silver on 6b to 5c to choose Rapid Attack in Yagura Opening?

Habu: It was totally unexpected. I had never seen him play that pattern before.

Umeda: Between 1997 and 2000, you wrote Changing Modern Shogi with Rapid Attack in Yagura Opening as the theme. And at one time, people found out that the Sente (First mover) seemed to be advantageous in Rapid attack and less and less people started to choose it as Gote (Second mover). But it suddenly happened in the 2008 Ryuoh title match. "Alas, he chose Rapid Attack in Yagura opening here!" I was touched. There should be some reason behind this.

Habu: I see. This is an enjoyment derived from watching it with very deep knowledge.

Umeda: The vector is facing other ways between this and the ability to play shogi.

Habu: But this is also kind of knowledge and one of abilities required for shogi. It is similar to that in baseball there are some experts who are extraordinarily familiar with data-related things because they always record scores on their own. I recently see on broadcast comments something like "this move has been played **times in the past." If this could take one step further, then it would be much more interesting. If we knew what sort of historical meanings there were behind a match, you would be able to watch the game from another perspective.

Umeda: I'm really interested in it. I find it fascinating to see the process of shogi's evolution. Namely, the way we can enjoy shogi as "a story" as we've already discussed, moreover, stories about the evolution of shogi, which are different from individual games. The joy that multiple stories influence each other and are referred in multilayered way does exist there without fail.

Habu: Aaaaa! And, um, when I'm playing, it often happens that the same position has different meanings. That is to say, people might say that this situation has occurred tens of times in the past, but the truth is that the backgroud of when the same position appeared ten years ago and that of today are completely different. They are so different but happen to be the same position.

Habu: Those difference may include the accumulated experience during the ten years, many twist and turns, new discoveries and so forth. Whether you can pour those into the situation or not makes a difference.

Habu: That's right. And I guess maybe there are situations where even professionals in the match can't sometimes understand everything.

Umeda: Even we can't understand everything, I hope these stories will help us watch a match.

Habu: Yes, I totally agree with you.

Umeda: It would be hard to tell when the modern shogi started... As I wrote in the first chapter, your Changing Modern Shogi. It was when I read it when I was so impressed by the promising future of shogi and pulled back into the shogi world. Yes, I have this feeling! And as expected, it has become really interesting in the past ten years.

Habu: There is no denying that the whole shogi world was moving as a big wave in the direction which I explained (in Changing Modern Shogi) at that time, though I cannot specify exactly when it had started, say twenty or thirty years ago. I reckon that a person such as Mr. Kozo Masuda might probably have seen that coming already in his time. But as he was the only one at that time, the small wave did not result in a big movement. Umm, how can I put it.. It sometimes occurs to me that what we're doing has a flavour of academics. There are times when I feel that professional shogi players are working on something like analysis of genome.

Umeda: Yes, yes! They certainly have aspects of a group of scientists.

Habu:It's as if we're saying "I'm through with the analysis here" (laugh).

Umeda: But new discoveries come along even though they felt they've done analyzing, as Rapid Attack in Yagura Opening in Ryuoh title match represented.

Habu: Yes certainly. For some strange reasons, new discoveries still emerge after several years from where we predicted nothing would come from. It is not a meaningful return like "revival booms" in fashion but just naturally pops out.

Umeda: Then let me ask. Do you reckon that Rapid Attack in Yagura Opening will become popular again?

Habu: I have seen several after Ryuoh title match. But it's more like "just seeing how it goes" (laugh). They're just giving it a shot and seeing the reactions. I can't guarantee that it's going to become very popular and does not have a feeling that it's striking. Are Gote winning half the time?

Umeda:I have great interest in the story of "the process of shogi evolution" and feel that "it won't bore me out for the rest of my life." I assume that professional shogi players, including you, must be enjoying more, but those fans who just watch are filled with happiness to have found what they can enjoy for the rest of their lives.

Habu: Yes, I can definitely sympathize with you saying so.

Thinking About the Future of Shogi With Computers

コンピュータとともに未来の将棋を考える／

Umeda: The expression "Genome analysis" fits the context very well. TANIGAWA Koji-san once said that "professional shogi players have three aspects as a gambler, an artist and a scientist." I frequently talk with professional shogi players and I feel the same way.

Habu: I agree with him. Each aspect is important.

Umeda: Speaking of the shogi evolution, you wrote Changing Modern Shogi in 1997. You suggested there that it might be possible to discover new possibilities by tracing a match backward move by move. If you were to write something about shogi's future, what would that be?

Habu: Let me see. It's becoming really difficult right now! It has often become too late and situation have often changed by the time I have finished a new book and it got published. Furthermore, if you were to write about the recent shogi such as P-7f P-3d and blocking the is Bishop's diagonal line of P-6d, "and  what can we do then?," you would need to write every pattern. It's really difficult to explain the modern shogi without Yagura, Ranging Rook Double Ranging Rook and so on, which broadly cover the whole thing. The trend that it's meaningless to follow only specific and limited areas is becoming prevalent.

Umeda: Does that mean that each pattern is fusing into each other?

Habu: Some are independent, but it's becoming more common that certain patterns are connected. And speaking of new moves, Kakugawari (Bishop exchange) and Itteson Kakugawari (Bishop exchange with losing a move) are completely the same pattern except for the location of pawns, right? The difference is so small that I would wonder there was a printing error (laugh). But they are in two totally different worlds. In order to explain the difference, I need to separate them into two completely different worlds.

Umeda: It seems difficult to me to explain that sense of "two different worlds." Do they look like being in completely different worlds to you?

Habu: Yes they are. Certainly different. They are definitely in different worlds. It is really difficult to explain. The instant I look at the board, I can tell instinctively which is Itteson and which is ordinary Kakugawari.

Umeda: Whether a Pawn is in the right place or not makes "two completely different worlds." How could you explain that instinct so that ordinary people can understand?

Habu: Let me see..ummm.. I can't find any good words on the spot. They are totally different types of position. Yes. With just one Pawn missing, what I can see would be so different. It then makes how to build piece formation or development I can predict totally different.. How can I put it... I'm sorry.. I can't come up with any good explanations.

Umeda: Could that mean that professional shogi players who can tell the future development at a glance of the board recognize the two shapes totally different.

Habu: Yes, that is right. Unless we think about those things, it seems very alike because only one Pawn is in different positions.

Umeda: I see. By the way, are the fact that the modern shogi came to have great tension from the beginning and the fact computers are becoming stronger in the final phase, especially when a mate is possible, related to each other? Computer shogi is becoming stronger and stronger backwards from the end on one hand, and studies by human are progressing forward from the beginning. I wouldn't assume that you're going so far as to be preparing to compete against computers, but as a whole, the early stage is where humans are still stronger, therefore studies on those early stages are being vigorously made in the modern world. Is this view superficial?

Habu: I reckon that in the foreseeable future computers are entering into the openings, too. But they haven't reached that phase at this stage yet. I'm not sure if we're studying openings because we know everything about the late stages, or if there's any causal relationship between them. I don't see any reasons to believe that the future of studying early stages with computers is still far away.

Umeda: Then we will soon start to look up the information about early stages using computers?

Habu: "Okay, let's listen to what they can say. Click." (laugh)

Umeda: Does it bother you?

Habu: Umm, it doesn't, really. This is merely my prediction, but when it actually happens, I don't think computers are any better than human at finding creative move at an early state. I suppose they will struggle. But computers have become essential when we require accuracy and precision.

Umeda: Early stages are still limitless and there are much more choices. And it is in this quest for possibilities at early stages where profoundness and creativity of human can manifest itself.

Habu: It might be that the fact that humans are groping in the dark represents the progress of computer shogi. There are many occasions where we can just ask computers. And if humans spend a great deal on the studies of early stages, it will feed computers and raise the level of computer shogi.

Umeda: They are absorbing the results one after another.

Habu: Yes, many possibilities. But I have had a slight feeling that no remarkable new strategy is out there anymore...Since a long time ago. But they still keep emerging despite this, so my predictions are always wrong. But I think now is about time for no more discoveries...

Umeda: You mean, for example, new findings as remarkable as Itteson Kakugawari (Bishop Exchange with losing a move) are...

Habu: No more out there. Speaking of the past ten years, R-8e strategy, Fujii System, Itteson Kakugawari(Bishop exchange with losing a move) and Gokigen Nakabisha. And vanguard pawn on the edge in the case of Gote as well..

Umeda: You are feeling that those unpredictable discoveries will not be found in the next ten to fifteen years?

Habu: I can hardly believe that there are still more, though these things emerge from the least expected, so I'm not really sure.

The Player and the Watcher Hereafter

指す者と、観る者の、これから

Umeda: Ah, time surely flew like an arrow. I'm really pleased to have spent tremendous amount of time on shogi in the past two or three years, especially this year.

Habu: Oh, really? I'm glad to hear that (laugh).

Habu: Did it? But.. may I ask you what you are planning to do this year? I'd like to hear your plans for this year (laugh)

Umeda: Eh!? (being at a loss for words for a while). Come on、I will keep doing the same thing this year! At least I'm planning to write real-time commentary for Kisei title match. To begin with, I will head for Nanki Shirahama for the second round of Osho title match next week.

Habu: I see. The year 2009 starts with Osho title match for you.

Umeda: But...it's hard to say..There's some truth in it that in 2008 it was because you kept winning the title qualifiers throughout the year that I was taken to the title matches! It was not like I was determined from the beginning that I would write Kisei title match commentary. I was thinking I would do so "only if the match between you and Sato-san came true." Then you hadn't lost even one match since we met in January, 2008, and you became  the challenger. It forced me to mentally prepare because the match now became so probable and I would need to write commentary. (laugh)

Habu: Certainly. Especially because you need to arrange a flight from San Francisco (laugh).

Umeda: I would have gone to Toyota-city for the Oui title match to see Fukaura-san as the Oui even the challenger had not been you. But you became the challenger after all, so we had a chance to meet up. The most .... was Ryuoh title match. "The round ticket for Paris and one week of break." I wouldn't have gone had it not been for you. So I'd like to answer to your question "what am I planning to do this year" by saying "it's up to you" (laugh).

Habu: Yes, that is true. I understand (laugh).

Umeda: To be honest, I started to feel a little ambivalent if you keep winning. Writing something about shogi was sort of "the last sanctuary" for "enjoyment after retirement" for me two years ago. Then I made up mind to go if you were the challenger and took a gamble. But as you continued a winning streak and the possibility of me really having to write commentary increased, it became necessary for me to spend tremendous amount of energy for the preparation. Of course I would never wish for defeat, but I watched your shogi with anticipation and surprise throughout the year. Especially in the qualifying tournament of Ryuoh title match, you kept reviving at the last moment. The live comments say something like "It would be not possible for Habu-san to reverse the match from this state." Although I was rooting for you, I was at the same time to some extent relieved, thinking "Phew, I don't need to go." But at the end, it was like "Oh, he has won! This sort of life still continues..." (laugh)

Habu: This is exactly what professional shogi player's lives are like. If you win the challenger deciding match, your schedule note for the coming two months will instantly be filled and if you lose it, your schedule note is going to become totally empty, nothing will be written there. What you just said about preparing for it is.. Umeda-san...You have been just following the exact lives of professional shogi players.

Umeda: I see. Following the lives of professional shogi players.

Habu: Indeed, if you were to enjoy the real fun of shogi, it might be important to link it to the reality. Your life is completely dependant on shogi (laugh).

Umeda: "My life completely changes depending on who wins." It's going like this again and again (laugh). And since it happened one after another, I ended up writing this book. Compared to this kind of experience, gambles which take money is nothing more than a pastime. Your shogi unexpectedly changed my life per se completely. The year 2008 was definitely the best year for me! And I hope 2009 to be the same.

(Recorded in Ginza, January 23, 2009)